Exclusive Interview with the US Ex-President Bill Clinton
芮成钢独家专访前美国总统克林顿

cctv.com 01-14-2004 20:04

Clinton gave an exclusive interview with Mr.Rui Chenggang,anchor of CCTV. He talked about global AIDS prevention, the growth of the US economy and the Sino-US relationship. Clinton was in China to attend an international seminar on AIDS and SARS prevention, held at Tsinghua University in Beijing earlier this week.

Rui: It's a great privilege to have you with us.

Clinton: Thank you, I am honored to be here.

Rui: The first question is: if AIDS is a big priority for China, will that help enhance and improve the trade relations between China and the US?

Clinton: Not necessarily, but I think it will bring the America and China closer together. Because I think it will remind the Americans that our relationship with China is more than money and more than trade. This is just like we succeed and peacefully resolve the North Korea nuclear issues. It will bring us closer together. You know ten years ago, America has the biggest AIDS problem in the world. Now two thirds of the cases are in Africa. But it grows faster in China, India, Russian and Caribbean. So I think the America should do what we can to help other countries to deal with the problems. That is why I came here. I mean that is why I work hard to get the price of the medicine down. Because I have been through it, I know what it like. I have friends with AIDS. It's not just a political issue with me. So I think it will bring us together if we work together on it.

Rui: President Clinton, are those the reason why someone as powerful as you who used to be the president of the US would choose AIDS to be your cause?

Clinton: Partly yes, because I believe that if we don't turn AIDS epidemic around. If the present trend continues, we will have a hundred million AIDS cases by the end of this decade. With a hundred million AIDS cases, governments will be destabilized. Economies will collapse. You will have a lot of countries with the infections like the present African countries 15% to 30% infection rise. In Sub-Sahara last year, almost nine hundred thousand children have their teachers die of AIDS. There are villages where there are no one to bring in the crops. There are plants where people have two worker for everyone vacancy because they think one will die. And the economy is shrinking. China has been growing about 10% a year. These countries have shrinking economies. That's what we are trying to avoid and make efforts to turn it around and we will bring it together in a good way.

Rui: That is also the reason that you believe that among all of the challenges that China faces right now, AIDS is more important or very important for Chinese citizens?

Clinton: Absolutely, and let me say why. Look and think about the challenges that China faces. The relatively low cost that dealing with this one. You have still significant unemployment. You have the problem of transition from the state-owned industries to the private industries. You have the problems that people are pouring into the cities. You know, all these problems can be made worse by AIDS. AIDS tends to flourish and big areas where lots and lots of people left their real home, they are coming in, they don't know people, they have no home in the city, they don't live with their neighborhood. If AIDS begins to spread in that kind of environment. It can quickly become an epidemic. So by spending little money, time and efforts on prevention, care and treatment on AIDS. You can have all the other problems to be solved.

Rui: Now, let us talk about Renminbi issue, President. The China government has chosen either to appreciate or devaluate the currency. Some people are quite happy about that; while some people are rather sad about that. And apparently, the US people are quite upset. So do you think this economic issue has been heavily politicized in the US?

Clinton: Yes, but that doesn't mean they are entirely wrong in our country. Of course it has been politicized But lets look at the backgrounds here. This is first of all like most economic issues. It is more complicated than either side of presenting it. Our economy is in recession. And the dollar drops against Euros 20%. It didn't drop against Chinese currency. Normally when your economy goes into recession and the value of your currency drops, it will make your country's import more expensive, and your export cheaper. It didn't happen compare the China's export in our market because your currency drifts. So even though we are in recession, even though we are losing manufacturing jobs, the Chinese position in American market is getting bigger. Now the American has 21% to 22% of the world GDP. And we buy 34% and 40% of Chinese export area. So if you look it that way, some people will think the Chinese currency should go up. There is another side of the coin. This year the America has huge budget deficit and last year. And the Chinese government bought a lot of our government bonds. The finances are deficit to keep inflation down, to keep the interests down. So the American can keep borrowing and buying things. That's not only Chinese things, but also American things. So we have a lot more partnership than you can tell. Just by looking at the trade numbers.

Rui: What is your opinion what could or should be done to even that imbalance on US-china trade in the short term and in the long term?

Clinton: What I believe needs to be done is both sides Chinese and US should look at the economic imbalance and trade relations, and ask ourselves what do we want the relations to look like ten years from now and then 5 years from now? What would china have to do and what would America have to do to get that done? And meanwhile there may be a lot of political talks. The America maybe has political retaliation on china. But over the long-run, we have to be partners. We have to find ways for our economic relations to be very good for China, and very good for America. I think in addition to dealing with the currency value, the American has to be more and more aggressive in selling products to China.

Rui: Would you call the china's economy a protective economy?

Clinton: All china's economy is not a protective economy. China has only a very small trade surplus to the rest of the world. This is China really has a big trade surplus with American because of the things we buy and we sell. So I think we have to work hard to sell them in the Chinese market and else where to bring our manufacturing jobs back.

Rui: Do you think it is fair to blame china for the unemployment issue in the US?

Clinton: I think it is not fair to blame china for the whole manufacturing loss in the US. And it is not accurate that China ties its currency to the dollar just to get more about the market. China's priority is to stablize its banking system. And if you remember the Asian finance crises in the late 90's, when most other countries dropped the value of their currency, Chinese didn't do it, when it was easier for China to dropped their values of currency. So I'd like to say that like all economic argument it is more complicated than politicians on either side to talk about it.

Rui: Hilary's book Living History sells very good in China? In this book, she said the thing that she fell in love with you first was your very attractive pair of hands? My question is what caught your eye about Hilary when you first met her?

Clinton: Her presence, more than any other attributes, she has this incredible presence, a sort of strength radiating out of her. She was strong , pragmatic and attractive person. You can look at her eyes that she is in total command of the situation. You know, she is still thus, still has the sense. But I've never seen anything like that before or hence. This is an intense and rather calm sense of control. It is almost a Asian feeling, like a Buddhist feeling, quiet, cold but very strong.

Rui: So that was definitely love for the first sight for both sides.

Clinton: I don't know if it was love for the first sight. But it was pretty close. That's a lot of fascination for sure. We are still interested in each other all these years.

Rui: And the last time I had the privilege to meet you is when we at the Yale Club and I asked you what do you think was the number 1 economic challenge that china is facing right now, and you said is the increasingly widening gap between the costal areas and the hinterland. Do you still think so?

Clinton: Yes, but I think that is just one example of widening gap between rich and poor. You cannot have a totally successful society in the global economy. The trick is to grow the middle class and keep reducing the number of poor people. One reasons that we got so many people with HIV or AIDs is that a lot of people in China try to supplement their income by selling blood to urban blood banks.And the instruments are contaminated, so they got HIV infected. That is just an example that the disparity of opportunities to make money to support families. I still think it is a real problem. I know there are also some other problems. How can you get the unemployment right down? Can you really manage the housing, the education, and the costs of all these people pressing into the cities? There are a lot of challenges. But I believe that the number 1 is that there are so many people you have to upbrooded. And I still believe that creating a social policy that is adequate to successful economic policy. That is a big challenge for China.

Rui: In that case, what do you think is the number 1 mission for China economic leaders?

Clinton: I think china should try to find a way that enable China to absorb the people moving around the country, manage the process of private economy, to have social justice. Even without communism, you cannot have successful market economy if you have no social justice. If you are poor, you will have more and more unequal, the system doesn't even work. The way the market economy continue to expand, you will always have more and more customers. That is why I have spent much time in African for example. Because I want to turn the Africa into the customer of rest of the world. I want them to live without poverty. And I want them to be part of the world market economy. In the free market economy, you cannot have economic policy without social justice policy. And China has breathtaking growth and success. And I think you have to manage all these dislocation that this kind of change cost us, I think you're gonna be fine.

Rui: And do you think the 7.2% economic growth in the third quarter of the US will be sustainable?

Clinton: Oh, no. But I still think we will have pretty decent growth in the next 2 or 3 years. Because we have basically healthy private sectors, because we have worked through the overbuilding of the telecommunication, because the government is stimulating the economy with massive deficit spending from the home defense and tax cut. So in the short-run, it helps us. And in the long run, the deficit is too big. Within 4 or 5 year, it will slow down again. We will have huge interest rate. And we will have terrible problems. That is why I work so hard to get rid of it. It is a very bad mistake. I hope my American fellows will abandon this course before we get the hurt all over again just like what happened in 1980's.

Rui: I think you have been asked about this question a million times, but I think hundreds of millions of Chinese audience really want to ask it again. You are 57, you are young, how do you plan to spend the rest of your life in a meaningful way?

Clinton: What I want to do is I want to finish my obligations. I want to write my memoirs the story of my life. That would be the next year. I want to build a presidential library and museum which capture the America's transition from 21st century, which will be finished at the end of the next year. And after that I plan to spend the rest of my life working on the world's large and common problems, bringing economic opportunities to poor people and poor places and bringing education opportunities to children who wouldn't have it otherwise, on fighting the HIV and AIDS, on resolving the religious, racial and ethnic tensions that grip the world and lead terrorism. They are root of terrorism. You know I have a great life, I have an unusual life. And anybody that has the blessed life I have, after the presidency, if you are healthy, I am healthy I think. I think I should spend the rest of my life in helping other people, to solve their problems. That's why I am here. I am going to Indian when I leave here. I work on economic opportunities to rural areas of India. I 'd like to help Chinese people to get AIDS drugs as cheap as possible. I work in Africa and in America, and in Latin America. I do this for all over the world because I think I should give back. I had a great life. When I was a child growing up in a very modest circumstances, no one in my little state has ever been elected to be the president of the United States. My life is improbable almost accidental set of opportunities. And I did my best to serve my country. But I think I should spend the rest of my life to serve the America and the world. That is what I intend to do.

Rui: Well thank you very much President Clinton for sharing with us your insights and vision.

芮成钢独家专访前美国总统克林顿

比尔·克林顿，称得上是美国历史上最受争议的总统了，他既是自富兰克林罗斯福以来第一位获选连任的民主党总统，也是美国有史以来第二位遭到弹劾的总统。

2001年卸任之后，55岁的他作为美国最年轻的卸任总统，媒体曝光率一直名列非常的高。他在北京接受了芮成钢的独家专访。

芮成钢：欢迎来到我们的节目, 克林顿先生。很高兴你能接受我们的专访。

克林顿：谢谢。能来这里我很荣幸。

芮成钢：如果中国把防治爱滋病工作放到更重要的位置上, 是否会有助于改善中美之间的经贸关系?

克林顿：这倒不一定。但是我想这会让中国和美国走得更近。因为我想它会提醒美国人我们和中国的关系不仅仅只是和钱与贸易有关。正像如果我们能够成功地和平解决北朝鲜的核问题， 也会让我们两个国家的关系更为紧密。你知道，十年前美国曾是世界上爱滋病问题最严重的国家。而现在三分之二的患者在非洲。但是现在在中国，在俄罗斯， 在加勒比海地区，爱滋病蔓延得越来越快，所以我认为，美国人应该尽其所能帮助别的国家解决这一问题。这就是我来这里的原因。这就是为什么我会致力于降低爱滋病药物价格的工作。因为在这一点上我有切身体会。我曾经亲眼目睹我的朋友因为爱滋病而离去。这对我来说不仅仅是一个政治问题。是的，我认为如果我们共同面对这一问题，我们会因此而走得更近。

芮成钢：那么克林顿先生，是否正是因为这些原因，作为美国的前总统—— 一位非常有影响力的人，你才选择把防治爱滋病作为你的事业之一？

克林顿：可以说是部分原因，因为我相信，如果我们不控制爱滋病的蔓延，任由目前的情况继续下去的话，不出十年，全球就会有1亿的爱滋病患者。这1个亿的爱滋病患者将会导致政局不稳，经济崩溃。有很多国家会像现在非洲的某些国家一样，爱滋病患者的人数达到总人口的15%到30%。去年在次撒哈拉地区以及部分非洲国家，差不多有90万儿童因为他们的老师死于爱滋病而无法正常学习。在一些村庄里，甚至连种（BRING IN）庄稼的人都没有。在有些工厂里，每个工作岗位要招两个人，因为

担心其中的一个可能随时会因爱滋病而死，经济会急剧下滑。和中国每年经济增长将近10%形成鲜明对比的是这些国家的经济急剧下滑，这是我们不愿意看到的。我们大家共同为扭转这种状况而作出的努力会让我们更好地走到一起来。

芮成钢：是否正是因为这些，你会认为在当今中国，在我们面临各种各样挑战的时候，防治爱滋病对我们每一个中国人来说尤为重要？

克林顿：绝对是这样。让我来解释一下，想想目前中国面临的挑战，再来比较一下应对爱滋病，所需的相对较低的成本。在中国 失业仍然是一个问题，国有企业的改制还在进行，农村人口大量涌入城市，带来诸多管理问题。所有的这些问题都有可能因为爱滋病而变得更加严重。在农村，人口大量涌入的城市里，爱滋病比较容易蔓延。这些人离开了农村，在陌生的城市里居无定所。如果爱滋病在这样的环境中蔓延，它会很快成为高度传染的疾病。但是如果在关注预防和治疗爱滋病上花一点点时间精力和钱，这就会对解决其它所有的问题有所帮助。

芮成钢：接下来我们来谈谈和人民币有关的话题。人民币既没有升值也没有贬值，一些人为此感到高兴，而另一些则感到失望，甚至气愤。显然，在美国很多人是不太高兴的。你认为 这个经济问题目前在美国是否已经被高度政治化了？

克林顿：当然是被政治化了。不过让我们来看看相关背景。首先，和大多数经济问题一样，

这个问题比它表面看起来要复杂得多。中国的货币是盯住美元的，当我们的经济衰退，美元对欧元来说贬值了20%。但相对人民币来说价值却没有变化。一般来说，当一个国家的经济萧条货币贬值的时候，会导致进口更加昂贵，而出口变得更加便宜。但是美国进口中国的产品却没有变得更贵，因为人民币是随着美元一起浮动的。所以尽管美国经济不景气，制造业就业机会在减少，中国产品在美国的市场份额却在加大。现在美国占全球国内生产总值的21%到22%，每年中国出口中的34%到40%是流向美国的。所以，如果只看问题的这一个方面，有人会认为人民币应该升值。凡事都有两面，去年和今年美国都有巨大的预算赤字，

而去年中国政府却购买了不少。美国政府的债券使得通货膨胀得以控制，使得利率维持在较低的水平。美国人可以继续借钱买东西，而且买的不仅仅是中国的产品，还有美国的产品，所以我们的伙伴关系要比你单从贸易数字上看到的更为密切。

芮成钢：那么在你看来，在近期或者长远来看，要应对目前中美之间这种贸易不平衡的局面

可做或该做的事情有哪些？

克林顿：我觉得需要做的事情是中美两国都应该冷静下来审视我们之间的经贸关系。再问自己一个问题：十年之后，五年之后，我们希望看到一个什么样的局面？中国和美国又愿意为这样一个目标作出怎样的努力？当然，同时会出现很多政治话题。也许美国会在政治上给中国出些难题，但是我认为长远看来，我们必须是伙伴，我们必须找到一种方式让中美的经贸关系真正对彼此有利。

芮成钢： 你觉得中国的经济是一种保护主义的经济吗?

克林顿：总的来说，中国的经济不是保护主义经济。其它国家对中国的贸易逆差非常的小，只是因为我们向中国买和卖的东西的类型决定了美国对中国有一个很大的贸易逆差。所以我认为，美国应当努力向中国卖更多的产品，向其它国家卖更多的产品，为国内制造业创造更多的就业机会。

芮成钢：你认为把美国失业问题归咎于中国合适吗?

克林顿：我认为把美国制造业的失业问题完全归咎于中国是不公正的。那种认为中国人民币盯住美元只是为了抢占美国市场的看法也是不正确的。我认为中国这么做主要是为了稳定国内金融系统。也许你还记得90年末亚洲出现的金融危机，当各国都在贬值货币的时候中国也完全可以使人民币贬值，但是中国没有这样做，中国保持了人民币的坚挺。我希望人民币的问题这一次也能得到顺利解决。这和很多经济问题的争论一样，它比政治家们所讨论的要复杂得多。

记者：希拉里的新书《亲历历史》在中国也卖得不错。在这本书中她说最先让她爱上你的是你那双充满魅力的修长的手。我的问题是：当你第一次看到希拉里的时候，是什么打动了你？

克林顿：她的气质比她其它的特征更吸引人的是她那种不可思议的从内到外散发出来的力量。她是一个坚强而且极具个人魅力的人。她眼中的神情似乎在告诉我眼前的一切尽在她的掌控之中。她现在还是那样，还有那种感觉。在那次见面之前和那以后我再也没有见过有人和她一样。那种强烈但是又非常冷静的控制力，那几乎是一种很亚洲的感觉。就几乎好像是佛学中提到的那种感觉一样，那种非常静谧神奇而又充满力量的感觉。

芮成钢：这对你们两个人来说都算是一见钟情吗？

克林顿：我不知道那是不是一见钟情，但应该是很接近了，一见着迷是肯定的了。过了这么多年我们依然对彼此很感兴趣。

芮成钢： 上次与你在耶鲁俱乐部见面的时候我问你中国面临的最大经济挑战是什么，你说是中国富裕的沿海地区和内陆地区日益拉大的差距。你现在还这么觉得吗？

克林顿：是的。但是我还想说，那只是日益扩大的贫富差距的一种表现。在全球经济的背景下，相当数量的富裕人口是一个社会成功的必要条件之一。这可能会带来一些差距，问题的关键在于要壮大中产阶级。这样可以大幅度削减贫困人口，中国农村之所以会出现爱滋病原因之一就是很多贫困人口，通过卖血换钱，因为医疗器械的不洁而导致感染。从这里可以看出，不同的经济环境下谋生的手段是多么的不同。我觉得这是一个问题，当然还有其它很多的挑战。国有企业的改制怎样降低失业人口，住房， 教育，以及大量人口涌入城市以后带来的问题？挑战有很多，但我觉得最大的挑战仍然是如此多的人口涌入城市可能会在城市形成一个新的贫困阶层。而因为劳动力流入城市，可能会造成农村贫困的加剧。我仍然相信制订一个与中国成功的经济政策相适应的社会政策是中国目前面临的巨大挑战。

芮成钢：这种情况下中国经济领袖人物最大的使命是什么？

克林顿：要让经济继续增长，同时要吸纳流动人口，解决私营经济的问题，强化社会公正。社会公正对于任何一个市场经济国家都非常重要。即使是对那些非社会主义国家来说收入分配的相对公平都是确保这个体系运作的前提。市场经济能够向前发展的要素就是有越来越多的消费者。这就是我为什么花很多时间到非洲去的原因。因为我想让非洲人成为全世界产品的消费者。我希望他们脱离贫困，更希望他们成为世界经济的一部分。总的来说，在市场经济环境下没有社会公正的政策，经济政策仍然难以成功。中国取得了举世瞩目的经济成就。

现在的挑战就是解决这种变化带来的错位。我相信你们会做得很好。

芮成钢：你对美国第三季度7。2%的经济增长率有何评价？你觉得这种增长可持续吗？

克林顿：噢， 不能。但是我相信在未来两到三年内我们还是会有相当不错的经济增长率。

因为我们的私营经济基本上比较健康，因为我们解决了电信行业的过度发展问题，还因为政府通过在国防和国土安全方面的开支以及减税带来的巨大赤字消费来刺激经济。在短期来看这对经济是有利的，但长期来看赤字太过于庞大了。在四、 五年之间美国经济增长又将放缓。我们会有巨大的利率，我们会遇到可怕的问题，因为我们又回到赤字消费的老路上来了。

这就是为什么我努力想改变这种状况的原因。这是一个非常糟糕的错误。为了避免这种错误带来的伤害，我希望美国人民能够尽早放弃这种发展经济的道路，以免重蹈80年代末美国经济的覆辙。

芮成钢：最后我有一个个人问题想问你，相信你已经被问过很多次了。你今年只有57岁，你打算如何有意义地度过你的余生？

克林顿：我想完成家里（美国）该做的事。写完明年就将出版的我的回忆录，讲我的故事。我想完成总统图书馆的建设以及明年年底即将建成的介绍美国如何向21世纪转型的博物馆。做完这些后我想把我的余生致力于解决世界普遍面临的问题上。给贫困的人口和地区带来经济发展的机会，给没有机会念书的孩子创造读书的条件，抗击爱滋病，解决那些困扰世界并且导致恐怖主义的宗教和种族冲突，它们是恐怖的根源。你知道，我有一个精彩的人生。我有一个不同寻常的人生。我想任何一个和我一样幸运的人在当完总统以后，如果你还和我一样健康，至少我认为我是健康的，应该用余生去帮助别人，解决他们的问题。为什么我到中国来？为什么随后要去印度？我为更多的印度农村带来经济机会而工作。我愿意帮助中国尽可能降低爱滋病药品的价格。我在非洲、美国和拉丁美洲工作，我在全世界工作。因为我想我有一个精彩的人生，我要回馈这个社会。我是一个在非常朴素环境下成长起来的孩子。

在我生长的那个小州，在我之前从来没有人成为过美国总统。我的人生是由一系列不可能，几乎是偶然的机会构成的。我尽我的全力为我的国家服务。但是我想我应该用我的余生为美国 、为全世界服务，这就是我想做的。

Editor:Guan  Source:CCTV.com